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    how did he do this??????????????
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    mets



    Joined: 01 Jan 2005
    Posts: 31

    PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2005 1:44 pm    Post subject: how did he do this?????????????? Reply with quote

    please click on the link: http://superdeals.itgo.com/cars.htm


    it brings you to cheapcarfinder.com, but u cant see his affiliate name. he somehow masked it out. how does he do this??? i have been wondering for long.


    thanks
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    WayneB



    Joined: 21 Oct 2004
    Posts: 960

    PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2005 3:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    He must be setting the cookie in an invisible way and then redirecting
    to the main page. According to Clickbank's terms, this is not legal.
    You cannot create the cookie on your visitors computer in invisible
    ways, all hoplinks are to be targetted to a top window, which means
    the hop= part has to show unless the vendor himself is using something
    to redirect the visitor. This is just my guess, but I am guessing he is
    opening the hoplink in an invisible way (not legal according to Clickbank's
    terms). Although Clickbank doesn't seem to enforce their terms at all.
    Their are software programs around that allow you to do this so the
    terms of Clickbank do not mean that much at all.
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    Milhouse



    Joined: 18 Jun 2004
    Posts: 64

    PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2005 1:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    could also just be done with a zero frame...

    without checking the code thre are many solutions without the use of cookies. Also possible with php.
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    julz137



    Joined: 28 Nov 2004
    Posts: 169

    PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2005 3:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

    He seems to be setting the cookie in the <Embed> tag on his webpage using a 2x2 sized screen, ie

    <embed src="http://hop.clickbank.net/?tytusc/moviegroup" width="2" height="2"></embed>

    (the numbers represent ASCII character codes - 104 = h, 116 = t, etc)

    Then he is redirecting with a meta-refresh to the site's ur without the hop link id

    ie.

    <meta http-equiv="Refresh" content="0;url=http://www.cheapcarfinder.com">


    Edited section - it seems this forum page converted all his html code, but if you look at the text in his page you will see each character in his urls use some ASCII number code in place of the URL.
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    CharlesWaters



    Joined: 03 Jun 2004
    Posts: 262
    Location: Palm Bay, Florida

    PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2005 4:07 am    Post subject: This raises a question... Reply with quote

    I see lots of affiliates talk about the dangers of having sales lost when their affiliate ID is displayed in the Hoplink. Is this really a huge danger? I think not. Well, it wouldn't be for most products. I guess it would be a problem for people who sell Affiliate Marketing type products Smile because we know what we're seeing.

    Anyway, what is being done here doesn't strike me as that big of a deal.
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    mets



    Joined: 01 Jan 2005
    Posts: 31

    PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2005 1:29 pm    Post subject: you are correct!!! Reply with quote

    julz137 wrote:
    He seems to be setting the cookie in the <Embed> tag on his webpage using a 2x2 sized screen, ie

    <embed src="http://hop.clickbank.net/?tytusc/moviegroup" width="2" height="2"></embed>

    (the numbers represent ASCII character codes - 104 = h, 116 = t, etc)

    Then he is redirecting with a meta-refresh to the site's ur without the hop link id

    ie.

    <meta http-equiv="Refresh" content="0;url=http://www.cheapcarfinder.com">


    it works great. thanks a lot!

    Edited section - it seems this forum page converted all his html code, but if you look at the text in his page you will see each character in his urls use some ASCII number code in place of the URL.
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    WayneB



    Joined: 21 Oct 2004
    Posts: 960

    PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2005 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    It will be interesting to see what Clickbank says about this site, they
    have already told me using the embed command is definitely against
    their terms.
    Also, I don't think displaying the hop= part in the address bar is not as
    big of a problem as most people make it out to be. It is a good idea to
    mask your hoplink somehow, but the hoplink has to be targetted to a
    top window according to Clickbank's terms, which means the hop= part
    has to show, unless the vendor himself is doing a redirect of some kind.
    As long as you mask your hoplink, once the visitor clicks on the link,
    your cookie is already set on the visitors computer, so it doesn't matter if
    he then removes the hop= part and goes to the site, because your
    cookie is already set. I really don't understand all the hoopla about
    the hop= part showing in the address bar.
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    WayneB



    Joined: 21 Oct 2004
    Posts: 960

    PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2005 2:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    I have sent an email to Clickbank, copied below, and will see once and
    for all what their response is. I don't care if they are going to allow this
    to happen, but if they are, I want them to let me know that it is ok, so
    I can start using this method myself.

    ***********

    I had asked before whether using the embed command in
    a page to create the cookie in an invisible way to the
    visitor was legal, and you had replied to me that this was
    definitely against the terms. Please check this forum:
    http://clickbanksuccessforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1432
    Here is a site using the embed command. Is this going to
    be allowed. And if it is going to be allowed and is going to
    work for others, then I am going to start using this method
    myself. I want to know once and for all, if this method is
    going to be allowed to work, because if it is I will start using
    it myself to get as many cookies on my visitors site as I
    can.
    There are software programs to allow people to do this. I
    would like to know what actions are going to be taken when
    people are caught doing this, and if no action is going to be
    taken then I will immediately start to use this method myself.

    **********

    There are some scripts using ActiveX and Javascript to accomplish
    the same thing as this embed command. I had thought hoplinks being
    opened in invisible ways would be stopped from working, according
    to their terms, but it looks like it isn't working.
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    WayneB



    Joined: 21 Oct 2004
    Posts: 960

    PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2005 3:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Charles,

    Even with affiliate marketing products there is no danger with the
    affiliate ID showing in the address bar. If the affiliate masks their hoplink,
    once the visitor clicks on their link the cookie is created. With affiliate
    marketing products, people have to worry about other affiliates using
    their own hoplink to get the commission for themselves. But they don't
    need the affiliate id to do this, they need the vendor id. So the
    affiliate id showing in the address bar will not help them. And if they are
    already signed up with Clickbank and familiar with how Clickbank works,
    once they reach the order form and see it is a Clickbank order form,
    they will still figure out a way to get the commission if they really want
    it. And most vendors don't mask the order link, and their vendor id is
    clearly visible in the order link, making it very easy for others to steal
    the commission. But the affiliate id in the address bar is NOT the
    problem.

    Wayne
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    WayneB



    Joined: 21 Oct 2004
    Posts: 960

    PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2005 3:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    julz137 is correct, you can go here to view the source code of this
    page:
    http://www.searchwho.com/sw5-spider.html

    Looks like he is using a combination of javascript, embed and meta
    redirect. He is creating the cookie using the embed command.
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    WayneB



    Joined: 21 Oct 2004
    Posts: 960

    PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2005 3:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    The problem with using the embed command, or even javascript and
    ActiveX to create a cookie in invisible ways, is this creates more
    bandwidth for the vendor without the visitor actually even seeing his
    site, and vendors will be paying commissions on some sales that they
    probably wouldn't have to. The example here is not as bad as some, he
    is actually redirecting to the vendors site, but some people use this to
    create a cookie on a presell page before the visitor even goes to the
    vendors site. The visitor may go to someones presell page and get a
    cookie and the vendors page loads in an invisible way, but yet the visitor
    never actually clicks through to the vendors site. People with high traffic
    sites could be using this method to create as many cookies as possible
    on their visitors computers. This is known as cookie stuffing, and most
    affiliate programs do not approve of this.
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    powerwriter



    Joined: 13 Apr 2004
    Posts: 136

    PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2005 1:40 pm    Post subject: Very simple . . . Reply with quote

    I do this also and it converts exceedingly well. You use a program like Affiliate Cloner.
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    WayneB



    Joined: 21 Oct 2004
    Posts: 960

    PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2005 1:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    No morals when it comes to online business. Even though it is plainly
    stated in Clickbank term's that this is not allowed, they seem to be
    allowing it. Since they are not responding, I am also going to start
    creating as many cookies as I can on my visitors computers from now
    on. That is what it is all about now, getting as many cookies as possible
    on others computers. No wonder there are so many programs around
    that are blocking cookies. My last post on this subject.
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    powerwriter



    Joined: 13 Apr 2004
    Posts: 136

    PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2005 1:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Not sure if that's directed at my post or not or even what it means for sure. But the software is legal and has been around a long time. All it does it cloak the URL so the visitor doesn't know he's clicked on an affiliate link and so he can't change the link to his own ID. Well, he could but generally doesn't know how or doesn't go to the trouble.

    But you're right about cookies. That's key.

    sk
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    WayneB



    Joined: 21 Oct 2004
    Posts: 960

    PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2005 2:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Just one more post to explain this more fully, and then I will be done. I
    agree that it is not as bad if you actually link to the merchant, but many
    people don't. If I understand this program correctly, it uses javascript
    to open the hoplink in an invisible way, thereby creating the cookie, and
    then you can link direct to the merchant's page without your id showing,
    or to any other page on his site, or to the order page. It creates the
    javascript line for you to use to create the cookie invisibly. Some people
    use this on their presell or landing page, and create the cookie without
    the visitor even actually having to go to the merchant's site. Same with
    the embed command. This is against the terms of Clickbank, they have
    told me this personally but looks like they don't want to post this
    publically. I can take the code that this program generates, and put it
    on a page on my site only using this code with no other content, and
    when people come to this page they would automatically have a cookie
    created on their computer without actually even going to the merchants
    site. In fact, I have done this already just as an example and had
    Clickbank check out the link to see how the cookie is created invisibly.
    Same thing with the embed command, you can use a link like this on
    any page on your site (replaced arrows with brackets):
    [embed src="http://yourhoplinkhere" width="1" height="1"]
    You can put this code on any page and it will create the cookie for that
    merchant without the visitor even going to the merchants site. And there
    are some selling scripts to do this, when you don't need the script at all,
    it is very easy to do, they are just out for the quick buck making people
    think it is the next new advanced link cloaking strategy.


    If you read their terms here (pay attention to #9):
    http://clickbank.com/hoplinkFAQ.html
    Hoplinks are to be targetted to a top window, not to any invisible images.
    Opening hoplinks in an invisible way are also supposed to prevent you
    from getting credit, but it looks like opening hoplinks in invisible ways are
    indeed giving credit. Since Clickbank will not comment publically, only
    by personal email to me that this is not allowed, I am going to start using
    these methods myself starting immediately. Why should others be
    allowed to use these methods but not myself. If they are not going to
    stop giving credit for hoplinks that open in an invisible way, then why
    do they state this in their terms. I don't care what they do, they
    make the rules, but I want to know what they are going to allow others
    to do, so I can have the same advantage.
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    powerwriter



    Joined: 13 Apr 2004
    Posts: 136

    PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2005 3:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Well, I know about that feature but that's not what I'm discussing. The question to which I was replying was simply about redirecting. Or at least that's what I thought. And that's the feature I was addressing --- not the cookie feature.

    sk
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    WayneB



    Joined: 21 Oct 2004
    Posts: 960

    PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2005 3:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Yes, that is what is being discussed. How are you redirecting, that is
    what this whole discussion is about. When link cloakers first came out,
    they were alright, that was all they did, was cloak the link so the visitor
    wouldn't see the hoplink and see it was an affiliate link or try to steal
    the commission. However, the latest scripts do more than just redirect,
    by opening the merchants site in an invisible way to create the cookie. If you are sending
    your visitors to the merchants site without your id showing in the
    address bar, then you have to be creating the cookie in an invisible way,
    it has to be created somehow in order to give you credit. There is nothing
    wrong with using a redirect, but the hoplink is supposed to be targetted to
    a top window, which means the hop= part has to show in the address bar
    unless the merchant himself is doing some kind of redirect. I use redirects
    all the time, using my cpanel, but the id still shows in the address bar after
    the visitor reaches the merchants site. Using javascript and activex, or the embed command to open the hoplink
    in an invisible way is currently against the terms of Clickbank. They may
    have an option which allows you to just do a simple redirect without creating
    the cookie in an invisible way, but if your id is not showing in the address bar you are not using this method, and I would bet there are a lot of people
    that do not use this option and use the other options available.
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    powerwriter



    Joined: 13 Apr 2004
    Posts: 136

    PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2005 3:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    As I'm sure you know, there are a number of products on the market that will drop cookies. My use for AC is as a redirect that cloaks my URL. That's what I bought it for and that's what I use it for.

    As for dropping cookies --- specifically CB cookies --- seems to me that would be sort of stupid in that it makes download time longer on a page and how many people are going to just happen into a CB site to buy something. I really don't think CB sites are all that popular. I wouldn't waste my time doing that myself.

    sk
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    WayneB



    Joined: 21 Oct 2004
    Posts: 960

    PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2005 3:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    It may seem stupid, but a lot of people will do it, especially now that they
    have to create their own landing pages. People will be using these
    methods to create cookies on their own landing pages without the visitor
    even having to go to the merchant's site. That is what most of these
    scripts promote. Most people's landing pages probably won't have that
    much content on them, so the load probably will not be that much more
    great than when they were sending them direct to the merchant. And
    if you use these methods on CJ or Linkshare, there is a good chance you
    could have your affiliate account terminated. I know people on the ABW
    forum that look for stuff like this and report it to the merchants, and some
    merchants have terminated their affiliates for cookie stuffing.
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    ScaryGary



    Joined: 04 Dec 2004
    Posts: 32

    PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2005 5:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Wayne, get a life. You should put more effort into being a power affiliate and less effort into being a power snitch. I bet Clickbank is getting tired of your little tattle-tale emails, that's why they haven't responded. Who cares? Most grown men have other more important things in their life to concern themselves with. Did you know there is another whole world out there outside of Clickbank? Shocked Log off, put down your keyboard, go outside and get some fresh air. Very Happy
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